![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
dmxratedFirst off, let me start by saying that I still am reading TV Tropes & Idioms, and I did say the other day "If my mood [at the time] is anything to go by". I'm just not coming back to Dethroning Moment of Suck or anything in its family, because even if that stupid rule is done away with, it would be up to whoever cares at that point to restore the bold and italics wherever it was previously (and I'm certainly not gonna be the one to do it with anything Nickelodeon-related). According to a thread in the discussion board (in which I participated as both McKnight and DMXrated), someone said that people (especially the administrators) question why it exists in the first place, and have even considered eliminating the whole trope (which they might as well, if you ask me). That's as much as I'm gonna bother to say about it for now (if ever).
Anyway, now for the real topic of this entry:
In most video games, characters (both protagonist and enemies alike) can survive harmful stuff for a set number of times, depending on certain variables. RPGs are especially notable for this: There are different values (for both Player Characters and enemies alike) that determine how many times someone can take any given attack. HP determines how close you are to dying (until which you're in perfect shape to continue fighting), Attack power, for both characters themselves and equipment and magic, determine how severe an HP loss your target will sustain, Defensive power determines how powerful an attack you can take, and Experience is what makes you more powerful and can only be obtained by defeating enemies. You also need experience in order to learn more powerful spells (which make older ones obsolete), and you also need Money (which is also obtained primarily by killing things) to buy stronger weapons, better armor, and better items, all with which to raise your stats and to support yourself in battles to come. Weaker enemies yield less experience and money than stronger ones. And all of this is designed to keep the game challenging, to provide you an incentive to fight enemies at your own level and to spend time and effort fighting them, instead of running away all the time lest you come to a boss fight underprepared (and no game will ever allow you to run from bosses).
In most non-video game works (save for a few works such as Pokemon, Digimon, Dragon Ball Z, and Power Rangers), as well as in real life, people or other beings involved in battle cannot withstand much more than one hit (if even that) from anything, be it a sword, a fireball, or a nuclear bomb. Different types of swords, knives, clubs, guns, or whatever other type of weapon you can think of, are no more or less deadly than one another. Even though differently designed swords have different physical advantages or disadvantages, giving them magical properties (such as a coat of fire on the blade) just to make them more powerful would just be redundant, as would knocking someone into the air and then shooting or jumping to get more hits in (since they'd probably die upon landing anyway).
Now, usually, when I'm watching something, I tend just to go along with whatever goes on in the show. However, when I'm reading TV Tropes, there are plenty of tropes for which I look directly for aversions. Sometimes, this may be because there supposedly isn't room for them, or otherwise because they only serve to enhance the drama despite defying logic, or because they're just ridiculous in and of themselves. A few examples pertaining to the previous two paragraphs include Almost Lethal Weapons, Inverse Law of Sharpness and Accuracy (which might as well be Corresponding Survivability and Accuracy), and Conservation of Ninjutsu. The first of those is not Truth in Television at all (and therefore, off my table); the second is an artificial formula which exists solely for the sake of drama (except for anything made for kids, in which it's also meant to tone down violence); and for the third and anything along its lines, there had better be some real justification for it (which there isn't in Commando, which I commented on a month ago).
To be fair, I can accept bullets, arrows, laser beams, or anything else that's either shot or thrown to constantly miss the targets. Guns are not homing weapons, but of course, with A-Team Firing in place, the protagonists can't have better accuracy for no in-universe reason just because they're the ones you're rooting for.
In short, if something doesn't make sense on its own, and there's nothing to back it up with, it shouldn't happen just because the plot or the Rule of Drama demands it.
-----
So, what leads up to all this? Well, more than a month ago, Chelle and I were talking about Monster Collection Chronicles, and how I could enable the Knights to fight against hordes of minions and enable the major antagonists (particularly in part I) to be able to withstand a lot more than any of their mooks could. My first idea was with rings (yes, taken directly from the Sonic franchise), but Chelle shot that idea down by saying that there wouldn't be room in the Rokumonverse for such a phenomenon, and suggested that I simply make an effort to create balanced battles.
She had also gone to explain why having the Knights be able to resurrect one another from death wouldn't work, both logically and for the sake of drama. If Gasejo could grant special powers to McKnight to in turn grant to twelve children, then why didn't she grant any such powers to the elemental angels or anyone else within Mon World, instead of some random guy in Man World? Furthermore, if it was possible to bring the dead back to life in Mon World (which, according to me, would only be possible for 24 hours post-mortem), then someone should have been able to resurrect Lark during the war in which he died, and he'd be able to deal with Reda long before he's able to do any real damage to their universe, thus negating everything that happens during the Mon Colle Knights anime. And, if the Knights were able to help one another like that, then they'd be pretty much infallible no matter how genuinely competent their enemies are.
For the sake of logic, there is little I can do to salvage such an idea. The only reason it's possible in RPGs, is because if each member in the party were to be Killed Off For Real once their HP reaches 0, the game itself would end for real, and you'd have to start all over, plus any parts of the plot that require said characters to be alive would get fucked up the ass.
So, the Knights aren't entirely infallible, and if it is possible to revive someone from something deadly, it would likely be for only as long as the brain is still alive. However, that pretty much means that the heroes (and any major villains involved) better learn to actively dodge or withstand everything. In order for that to happen, they would have to become artificially superpowered (able to boost speed, strength, endurance, and to heal wounds, at the very least). There will be no artificial equations. That also means that the generals better have their own way of getting by and standing a fighting chance against the Knights.
Yeah. Chelle ruled that out one time before, but if I recall correctly, her main argument was if I intended to show the Knights do any training with their new weapons, in which case, I'd be stretching everyone's willing suspension of disbelief who's reading it.
In any case, between the ability to resurrect and Instant Kick-Ass, one thing has to stay. For the aforementioned story-related reasons, it's probably not gonna be the former, but they can't both go because the most important point of the ficseries (besides demonizing Nickelodeon, in part II) is to showcase fighting (especially without summoning monsters, although they will still do that on the sidelines).
Anyway, now for the real topic of this entry:
In most video games, characters (both protagonist and enemies alike) can survive harmful stuff for a set number of times, depending on certain variables. RPGs are especially notable for this: There are different values (for both Player Characters and enemies alike) that determine how many times someone can take any given attack. HP determines how close you are to dying (until which you're in perfect shape to continue fighting), Attack power, for both characters themselves and equipment and magic, determine how severe an HP loss your target will sustain, Defensive power determines how powerful an attack you can take, and Experience is what makes you more powerful and can only be obtained by defeating enemies. You also need experience in order to learn more powerful spells (which make older ones obsolete), and you also need Money (which is also obtained primarily by killing things) to buy stronger weapons, better armor, and better items, all with which to raise your stats and to support yourself in battles to come. Weaker enemies yield less experience and money than stronger ones. And all of this is designed to keep the game challenging, to provide you an incentive to fight enemies at your own level and to spend time and effort fighting them, instead of running away all the time lest you come to a boss fight underprepared (and no game will ever allow you to run from bosses).
In most non-video game works (save for a few works such as Pokemon, Digimon, Dragon Ball Z, and Power Rangers), as well as in real life, people or other beings involved in battle cannot withstand much more than one hit (if even that) from anything, be it a sword, a fireball, or a nuclear bomb. Different types of swords, knives, clubs, guns, or whatever other type of weapon you can think of, are no more or less deadly than one another. Even though differently designed swords have different physical advantages or disadvantages, giving them magical properties (such as a coat of fire on the blade) just to make them more powerful would just be redundant, as would knocking someone into the air and then shooting or jumping to get more hits in (since they'd probably die upon landing anyway).
Now, usually, when I'm watching something, I tend just to go along with whatever goes on in the show. However, when I'm reading TV Tropes, there are plenty of tropes for which I look directly for aversions. Sometimes, this may be because there supposedly isn't room for them, or otherwise because they only serve to enhance the drama despite defying logic, or because they're just ridiculous in and of themselves. A few examples pertaining to the previous two paragraphs include Almost Lethal Weapons, Inverse Law of Sharpness and Accuracy (which might as well be Corresponding Survivability and Accuracy), and Conservation of Ninjutsu. The first of those is not Truth in Television at all (and therefore, off my table); the second is an artificial formula which exists solely for the sake of drama (except for anything made for kids, in which it's also meant to tone down violence); and for the third and anything along its lines, there had better be some real justification for it (which there isn't in Commando, which I commented on a month ago).
To be fair, I can accept bullets, arrows, laser beams, or anything else that's either shot or thrown to constantly miss the targets. Guns are not homing weapons, but of course, with A-Team Firing in place, the protagonists can't have better accuracy for no in-universe reason just because they're the ones you're rooting for.
In short, if something doesn't make sense on its own, and there's nothing to back it up with, it shouldn't happen just because the plot or the Rule of Drama demands it.
-----
So, what leads up to all this? Well, more than a month ago, Chelle and I were talking about Monster Collection Chronicles, and how I could enable the Knights to fight against hordes of minions and enable the major antagonists (particularly in part I) to be able to withstand a lot more than any of their mooks could. My first idea was with rings (yes, taken directly from the Sonic franchise), but Chelle shot that idea down by saying that there wouldn't be room in the Rokumonverse for such a phenomenon, and suggested that I simply make an effort to create balanced battles.
She had also gone to explain why having the Knights be able to resurrect one another from death wouldn't work, both logically and for the sake of drama. If Gasejo could grant special powers to McKnight to in turn grant to twelve children, then why didn't she grant any such powers to the elemental angels or anyone else within Mon World, instead of some random guy in Man World? Furthermore, if it was possible to bring the dead back to life in Mon World (which, according to me, would only be possible for 24 hours post-mortem), then someone should have been able to resurrect Lark during the war in which he died, and he'd be able to deal with Reda long before he's able to do any real damage to their universe, thus negating everything that happens during the Mon Colle Knights anime. And, if the Knights were able to help one another like that, then they'd be pretty much infallible no matter how genuinely competent their enemies are.
For the sake of logic, there is little I can do to salvage such an idea. The only reason it's possible in RPGs, is because if each member in the party were to be Killed Off For Real once their HP reaches 0, the game itself would end for real, and you'd have to start all over, plus any parts of the plot that require said characters to be alive would get fucked up the ass.
So, the Knights aren't entirely infallible, and if it is possible to revive someone from something deadly, it would likely be for only as long as the brain is still alive. However, that pretty much means that the heroes (and any major villains involved) better learn to actively dodge or withstand everything. In order for that to happen, they would have to become artificially superpowered (able to boost speed, strength, endurance, and to heal wounds, at the very least). There will be no artificial equations. That also means that the generals better have their own way of getting by and standing a fighting chance against the Knights.
Yeah. Chelle ruled that out one time before, but if I recall correctly, her main argument was if I intended to show the Knights do any training with their new weapons, in which case, I'd be stretching everyone's willing suspension of disbelief who's reading it.
In any case, between the ability to resurrect and Instant Kick-Ass, one thing has to stay. For the aforementioned story-related reasons, it's probably not gonna be the former, but they can't both go because the most important point of the ficseries (besides demonizing Nickelodeon, in part II) is to showcase fighting (especially without summoning monsters, although they will still do that on the sidelines).
no subject
Date: 2019-07-16 07:31 am (UTC)Lark during the war in which he died, and he'd be able to deal with Reda
Whaaaat? If Lark had that kinda power, he wouldn't be dead in the first place. I was saying Lark's revival would mean those with the magical foresight would be able to weaponize Zaha.
and if it is possible to revive someone from something deadly, it would likely be for only as long as the brain is still alive.
Still doesn't work, since it's pretty certain Lark didn't die of exploded brain (no brain = instant dead = not having conversations with sisters). Just have revival endowed person teleport over to where he died before he actually is braindead. Godly foresight makes that pretty possible to arrange.
Different types of swords, knives, clubs, guns, or whatever other type of weapon you can think of, are no more or less deadly than one another.
This makes no sense, yes they are different degrees of deadly. Either you worded something oddly, or I missed the point.
Anyway, if you want to have messy mook battles that are a real threat, why not try having Kasumi get some limited future predicting powers? Like, she'll be able to foretell a battle 5 or 10 minutes into the future, see who is going to die, and then the team'll have to work really quickly to avoid that death without compromising their stance beyond what she can foretell at that moment. Also, you can still have chopped off limbs, disemboweled people barely alive, and lots of other gore to traumatize the kids.
no subject
Date: 2019-07-16 07:32 am (UTC)This makes no sense, yes they are different degrees of deadly. Either you worded something oddly, or I missed the point.
Well, the page for Almost Lethal Weapons did say that "the chances of you receiving such minor injuries (or no injuries at all) after falling victim to such things are extremely slim, unless you've got some kind of miraculous luck. Almost invariably, you would be either killed, or scarred or crippled for life." Must have misconstrued that as well.
About what you suggested, I think that would be a good way to arrange things. The focus might then be on avoiding what possibilities are more life-threatening among everything the enemy can do, which would justify any correlation between how survivable something is and the chances of it actually happening to someone.
Thanks for that.
no subject
Date: 2019-07-16 07:33 am (UTC)You know, this is a bit out there, but *maybe* there's a sacred place somewhere in the six lands where a sacred tree that can bring people back from near death states (as in, to the point prior to absolute death, even if they've hit -10HP or such in game terms), and in the meantime between the TV show and the story, the Mon World inhabitants found the tree and are trying to collect its leaves or fruits as those are ways to ensure survival?
The lack of abundance justifies why they can't be revived at willy-nilly, the sacred place could have protections that justify why the badguys can't just assault it (maybe they can't find someone pure enough to go in there until a climactic point), and the very fact that it's an important location that must be protected would be a plot point.
no subject
Date: 2019-07-16 07:33 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2019-07-16 07:34 am (UTC)Same problem as I already mentioned. Future predicting creatures + limitless insta-teleportation powers + cure for death = plot hole. Whether the inhabitants of the six gates world didn't know about a revival method doesn't change that, the creators of the prophecy would. Did you already decide on the identities of those anyway?
Btw, forgot to mention, do you remember there already is a time spell within the series that can reset events within a certain area? It's used in the Cactus episode to rewind a hopeless situation, and Beginner uses it to rewind team Collection's actions in the baseball episode. It can only affect small areas and only rewind about a minute or so, and is apparently subject to the one use per day rule, but it might be another thing for Kasumi.
no subject
Date: 2019-07-16 07:34 am (UTC)Yes, I remember you mentioning that spell before. Kasumi might be able to bypass the one-use-per-day rule, but I haven't decided upon that yet.
Should also note that Anticipate, which is what Kasumi unlocks the team, is what allows one to see up to five minutes into the future (usually less than that). Everyone can use it, but she's the first one to do so, as well as the one who's able to manipulate time itself through her Root Element. And, even with such a thing handy, the enemy would still be unpredictable as to what they're gonna do if anyone were to do anything different from what they'd do by default, which is why it would be used to focus on avoiding the more deadly attacks that any enemy would pull off while letting them proceed with anything that one can either withstand, dodge, recover from, or be saved from.
no subject
Date: 2019-07-16 07:35 am (UTC)Yes, those who put the prophecy in place.
Huh, don't have all those attacks memorized.
the enemy would still be unpredictable as to what they're gonna do if anyone were to do anything different from what they'd do by default,
Why are the new timelines immune to being read?
no subject
Date: 2019-07-16 07:36 am (UTC)https://dmxrated.dreamwidth.org/275039.html
Not that they're immune to being read; it's just that one doesn't have time to foresee every single possibility during the chaos of a fight. I mean, before the fight begins, they'd have more time to plan things out, yeah, but not while it's already going on.
no subject
Date: 2019-07-16 07:36 am (UTC)Off course it matters, you're gonna turn the world upside down in the next few books. Don't tell me none of the characters ever are going to ask about fate, the time realm and just how much the gods they worship are involved with it all. You don't need to provide all answers in a story, but you should know them as an author, so you can make it plausible why those answers wouldn't be there when the characters ask.
Why doesn't she have the time to foresee the consequences of every action? Ever heard of the phrase, "think on your feet?" New action, one new future. Adapt, another new future. Hey, telepathic team mate, tell other team mate to withhold/dodge/attack now. If you don't think a human brain can handle that, you're really underestimating brains.
Why would her brain just shut down the foresight because it happens in more rapid succession? Brains don't randomly shut down information sources during danger. To the contrary, the reflexes are tuned up along with the senses. Maybe she won't be making intricate plans and her brain will be tired afterwards, but she could cause coordinated team moves to avoid certain things. That won't cause perfect battles, it could cause bigger messes if someone doesn't do as they're told, or someone has the wrong idea. Point being, is there any reason for her to lose foresight during the battle, other than that it might be complicated to write?
no subject
Date: 2019-07-16 07:37 am (UTC)