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Dec. 22nd, 2013 04:54 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
dmxratedAfter some discussion with various people about storybuilding and indie game creation, I have finally started reading The Web Game Developer's Cookbook as of yesterday. Hoping once I do all the exercises to create a demo of what a game version of Starbound would be like, which will consist of what I currently have of the fanfic to start with. Will figure out what to do once I host that on YouTube, before I actually do so.
For the record, though, I still do plan on seeing the fic through. Even though my writing style is somewhat simplistic, that format is still easier for Chelle to work with when she critiques something, and there are also conversations that wouldn't really be necessary for a game (such as at the beginning of chapter 2). Even though Shigesato Itoi did commission someone else for novelizations of Mother 1 and 2, and even gave almost total leeway to do what she wanted with them, this fanfic is not something I'd delegate to anyone else. (Especially since I do particularly like the recurring references characters make to something usually undefined that stinks (whenever the anime's writers lack anything else to open a scene with), as well as most characters' frequent use of the word "totally" (which is mostly in the anime's English dub).)
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Marie has come home for the holidays. I went with Brian to Moe's to meet with her and her friend Courtney. Waited for them before getting in line.
I ordered a John Coctostan quesadilla while we were there. Brian didn't want anything, having had a bagel just an hour earlier, but I did let him have my nachos.
Went to the liquor store at Sunshine Square once we left and Courtney went her own way. Didn't actually get anything after looking around there.
For the record, though, I still do plan on seeing the fic through. Even though my writing style is somewhat simplistic, that format is still easier for Chelle to work with when she critiques something, and there are also conversations that wouldn't really be necessary for a game (such as at the beginning of chapter 2). Even though Shigesato Itoi did commission someone else for novelizations of Mother 1 and 2, and even gave almost total leeway to do what she wanted with them, this fanfic is not something I'd delegate to anyone else. (Especially since I do particularly like the recurring references characters make to something usually undefined that stinks (whenever the anime's writers lack anything else to open a scene with), as well as most characters' frequent use of the word "totally" (which is mostly in the anime's English dub).)
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Marie has come home for the holidays. I went with Brian to Moe's to meet with her and her friend Courtney. Waited for them before getting in line.
I ordered a John Coctostan quesadilla while we were there. Brian didn't want anything, having had a bagel just an hour earlier, but I did let him have my nachos.
Went to the liquor store at Sunshine Square once we left and Courtney went her own way. Didn't actually get anything after looking around there.
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Date: 2019-07-17 10:30 am (UTC)that format is still easier for Yincira to work with when she critiques something,
What do you mean with that? I'm pretty sure I've never indicated that it's easier for me, if anything, it makes it more difficult to pay attention since it's not very engaging.
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Date: 2019-07-17 10:31 am (UTC)Then again, I suppose I could show you demos instead, cutting out unimportant stuff as I play along. Should I?
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Date: 2019-07-17 10:31 am (UTC)When I crit prose I mainly pay attention to the story, but also to the writing. If I'd crit it in another format, concritting the story would still be the same, as would concritting the dialogue. Redlining would be more difficult in a demo, but you can just send me the script for that.
It might actually be useful if you write the story in script format first, and then transfer it either to prose or video.
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Date: 2019-07-17 10:32 am (UTC)I meant, instead of you having to actually play the game and wade through non-plot-related stuff, which isn't the case with movies or such. That's why I alternately suggested that I just send you clips containing more relevant stuff.
It might actually be useful if you write the story in script format first, and then transfer it either to prose or video.
If that would work for you, I'm sure I could do that too.
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Date: 2019-07-17 10:33 am (UTC)That's why I alternately suggested that I just send you clips containing more relevant stuff.
If you're going to send me cutscenes, send them all, not just the relevant ones.
If that would work for you, I'm sure I could do that too.
This isn't for me. You're going to need a script for the game no matter what. Otherwise you'd be going in blind, and might end up doing stuff you change your mind about later.
there are also conversations that wouldn't really be necessary for a game
If they're not necessary for the game, they're not necessary for the story in prose format either. Just throw it in as a bonus scene. The benefit of games is that people can skip cut scenes, and you can mark them as bonus or as plot relevant.
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Date: 2019-07-17 10:33 am (UTC)I meant, a little bit at a time. Just like how I show you only a whole chapter of the fic at a time, not just part of it but not waiting for the whole thing to be completed.
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Date: 2019-07-17 10:33 am (UTC)Your first argument up in the entry was about me not playing video games, which only made sense as objection if I'd have to play it to get to the cutscenes (or demos, whatever you call them). That's what I responded to.
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Date: 2019-07-17 10:34 am (UTC)Anyway, so far, I actually have reconsidered what you said about what's necessary and what isn't, and you happen to be right. The whole point of adaptations (aside from changing what a given one's writer sees fit) is to *expand* upon the material. (Movies happen to be exceptions, though, since their content *has* to be compressed in order to fit a limit of 90-120 minutes more or less.)
In any case, I'm thinking of analyzing everything I've written to the fic thus far, and seeing how they'd work in game format. Whether I do that in response to one of your previous comments or in a whole new entry, I'll decide after I've gotten everything ready.
Warning: Spoilers
Date: 2019-07-17 10:37 am (UTC)Thought about that, and re-read all three chapters to see which parts were in question.
What it is, is not so much that they wouldn't translate well enough, but if this story were a game instead of a fanfic, then I probably wouldn't have thought them up in the first place. The thing is, while games that even are divided into chapters at all are usually divided into a handful which each cover an entire arc (as we've seen with Mother 3), fanfiction has to be divided into way smaller chapters than that. This is why one has to pick and choose how to begin and end each individual chapter in such a way that might not be necessary for a game.
So, let's walk through them:
“Don’t rely on PSI too much,” said Rokuna, after finishing the call. “You can only use it so much each day, and the most common way to use more of it is to find a magic butterfly, but even they don’t recover that much.”
“Magic butterfly?” the other girls said, almost in unison.
“Oh, they exist, but only psychics can tell them apart from normal ones.”
[chapter split]
“Now that I think of it, I do sorta remember my hair brushing against the bedframe after using the bathroom,” said Kagami, as the girls all walked back to Rokuna’s house. “I was still feeling sleepy, so I figured I’d try to understand what happened in the morning, and then I totally forgot about it.”
In a game, the party would've just been heading back to Rokuna's house, free from any further battles, after Rokuna advises them not to rely too heavily on psionics. Not to mention that, since that was the middle of an ongoing conversation, it would likely be awkward to have the player just moving along an otherwise eventless rest of the path home and then have some dialogue come out of nowhere.
Here, I wanted to mark that down while I still had the idea to explain Kagami's situation that morning, and also to ease the readers into the next scene where her family berates her and her friends. I just wrote whatever came naturally after that whole line until finding a good point to cut off.
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Date: 2019-07-17 10:38 am (UTC)-----
Elsewhere sat a certain snaggletoothed blonde woman in front of her computer, reading something by her blue-haired student as she played the game in question.
"Psychic powers?" she said. "Adventure? Fighting aliens? And Hiiragi-san and Takara-san are in on this too?"
In a game, there would be no cutaway, and the player would still see Konata at Rokuna's computer while Nanako speaks to her, which is not as creative.
"I need to bring Yuu-chan back home, so see you all at your house," said Konata.
"Bye-nii," said Kagami and Tsukasa simultaneously, while the other girls bid them their own farewells.
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Back at the Izumi residence, Soujiro had been all alone and working on one of his graphic novels. That skirmish from the previous night, the attack that Tadao and Miki had previously described to him, and whatever else may have been going on had sure made some nice story material for him.
The solitude was broken when he heard a knock at the door. Outside stood a blonde woman wearing a white button-down shirt, a magenta pair of jeans, and a red necktie. Her waist-length hair was kept in a ponytail with a lavender bowtie, and she also sported a tiny fang in the corner of her mouth.
"Have we met before?" asked Soujiro.
"Soujiro Izumi?" asked the woman.
"That would be me."
"I'm Nanako Kuroi, your daughter's homeroom teacher."
"Come on inside, make yourself at home."
The two of them each took a seat at the dining room table.
"So what brings you here?" asked Soujiro.
"If what your daughter told me is true, then let's just say that I probably won't have to nag her to go study anymore whenever I sign onto my online game," said Nanako.
In a game version, the player would control either Konata with Yutaka or Rokuna with everyone else as they head to their respective destinations and probably fight stuff along the way (that being one of the points of a video game but redundant for a fanfic). In Konata's case, she'd be surprised to see Nanako upon arriving back home.
For the fic, I just saw it easier instead to cut away to Nanako arriving at the house and explaining to Soujiro why she came. Not to mention that this point stems exactly from how the previous chapter ended, since the cutaway to her at her computer would otherwise be pointless.
That should be all, as far as the main story goes. But, combined with the possible events of three planned spinoff fics, which probably wouldn't fit into a game version, this is why I would like to continue writing the story as a fanfic. (Considering that people are known to write novelizations of existing games as fanfiction, this would also be a nice little inversion of that, too.)
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Date: 2019-07-17 10:39 am (UTC)Why? Do you plan to make the game so poorly or the story so paper thin it needs filler battle like that just to have something happening?
Not to mention that, since that was the middle of an ongoing conversation, it would likely be awkward to have the player just moving along an otherwise eventless rest of the path home and then have some dialogue come out of nowhere.
They're actually sharing relevant information that's logical to give at that time, so why wouldn't you do that in a visual format at that time? Put it in a cut scene, if you don't want to program it happening while the player walks.
The thing is, while games that even are divided into chapters at all are usually divided into a handful which each cover an entire arc (as we've seen with Mother 3), fanfiction has to be divided into way smaller chapters than that. This is why one has to pick and choose how to begin and end each individual chapter in such a way that might not be necessary for a game.
Are you familiar with the therm visual novel or interactive comic? None of that supposed barrier dictating those formats is actually physically enforced by the universe. Heck, Homestuck got huge on being both a comic and a game at the same time, its creators just experimented and it worked.
Point being, you may be taking way too much hay on your fork by trying to do everything. A game is going to require you to do lots of pixel art for environments and programming, and you're not the fastest writer either. You can do a game with those self-imposed limits, you can do a more freestyle quasi-novel/comic game, you can do it in prose. Pick one and focus on it.
Speaking of the backgrounds of the game, have you tried pixel landscaping yet?
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Date: 2019-07-17 10:41 am (UTC)You said yourself once, that all those non-plot-related battles that one fights in an RPG should be skipped in a non-interactive format. Or something like that during the summer of 2010.
If I understand correctly, the point of all those battles is to see how far you can get towards the next point in the story without running out of supplies and dying. Isn't that what makes the challenge of an RPG in the first place?
Might have to speak to Jake about it to see if he can explain better.
They're actually sharing relevant information that's logical to give at that time, so why wouldn't you do that in a visual format at that time? Put it in a cut scene, if you don't want to program it happening while the player walks.
Well, I suppose I could have it take place when they reach a threshold of sorts, similar to the one between Onett and Twoson, and have them walk automatically through the next section of the woods (if I don't decide to have it take place through a full-motion scene instead).
Are you familiar with the therm visual novel or interactive comic? None of that supposed barrier dictating those formats is actually physically enforced by the universe. Heck, Homestuck got huge on being both a comic and a game at the same time, its creators just experimented and it worked.
Visual novels, yes. Saya no Uta is one. Not interactive comics, though. But yeah, I see your point. If the end of chapter 1 and the beginning of chapter 2 were actually part of the same chapter, they'd work just as well consecutively.
Speaking of the backgrounds of the game, have you tried pixel landscaping yet?
Was assuming I'd hire others to create stuff while I be in charge of actually programming everything. This is why I've started reading that book I mentioned in the main entry. No one can do everything, after all, but by putting stuff together and making it all work the way I want it to, at least I'd be doing something more substantial than merely overseeing stuff, wouldn't I?
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Date: 2019-07-17 10:42 am (UTC)How does this answer my question? It is your choice whether or not you design a game to include filler. You could choose to allow the first forest area to have enough option to level up to beat the boss of that section or reach the location where they get the info, instead of having it take twice as long to get to the plot point at the house. Leveling up = logical, but it doesn't need to be spread out as long as possible when it makes no sense. When they backtrack the exact same route they came from, why would it suddenly be occupied by enemies strong enough to provide fresh challenge when they weren't there before?
On that topic, how long do you intend the game to last anyway?
If I understand correctly, the point of all those battles is to see how far you can get towards the next point in the story without running out of supplies and dying. Isn't that what makes the challenge of an RPG in the first place?
You plan to make it an RPG? I didn't expect that since you never mentioned anything about multiple storylines, you made it sound like it follows a set single story. There's not much role playing if everything can only go one way. Or does RP stand for something else in video gaming community?
Was assuming I'd hire others to create stuff while I be in charge of actually programming everything.
Before doing anything at all on a game, check whether you have the money for that and get a rough estimate of how much locations you'd need.
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Date: 2019-07-17 10:43 am (UTC)At this point, I think I'll ask Jake to add his opinion here. He might be able to answer that better than me.
On that topic, how long do you intend the game to last anyway?
Since it's going to have the same story, most likely the same length as the fic (at least plotwise).
You plan to make it an RPG? I didn't expect that since you never mentioned anything about multiple storylines, you made it sound like it follows a set single story. There's not much role playing if everything can only go one way. Or does RP stand for something else in video gaming community?
Yeah, the term "RPG" is, in fact, an Artifact Title as far as video games go. Most RPGs that I'm familiar with follow only one path for the story. It's exactly what Earthbound is classified as.
Before doing anything at all on a game, check whether you have the money for that and get a rough estimate of how much locations you'd need.
Not planning on doing anything immediately, even after I finish that book. Gonna need to find myself a job first.
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Date: 2019-07-17 10:44 am (UTC)Since it's going to have the same story, most likely the same length as the fic (at least plotwise).
No, I meant the time of gameplay. It's not likely to be the same as the time it takes to read it.
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Date: 2019-07-17 10:45 am (UTC)http://youtu.be/kFLRSnc9GUE?t=2m39s
Gameplay? Pretty long if I end up creating a full-scale game. Never really thought about how many actual hours worth, but I should mention that it's actually quite possible that it won't be any longer than a "pilot" of sorts. (The real point is mainly to create something that would be interesting to compare on YouTube to the canon games (including Earthbound 64, which was going to be the 3D game but ended up canned).)
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Date: 2019-07-17 10:45 am (UTC)Anyway, I get the point about random encounters and world building, but putting a whole stretch of that between the start of the plot/quest explanation and the finish of it seems a good way to annoy. Maybe add a sneak option to avoid mooks or something?
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Date: 2019-07-17 10:45 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2019-07-17 10:46 am (UTC)In the game, the reason why there are randomly violent dogs, snakes and crows around Onett is because Giygas can only affect the minds of animals at the time, rather than that of evil villains. Even then, however, they're only common in the wild, as once you reach Onett you have to deal with the Sharks - and although defeating them doesn't remove the animals from the area, by the time you can reliably defeat the Sharks, you're too strong and they start running away and such.
Honestly, I think here the problem is that you don't know how to work with random encounters.
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Date: 2019-07-17 10:46 am (UTC)Of course, considering that the Starman Jr. was the one responsible for both the poltergeist attack and animals going berserk in the woods, and Rokuna can't sense any more of its kind, yeah, it probably would make more sense not to have any further encounters. If there's room for anything else to happen on either Konata's* way back to her house or the others' way back to the twins' house, then I'd be open to suggestions, particularly since (and this is just an assumption) the player would have already sat through a whole bunch of cutscenes at Rokuna's house and might get bored sitting through yet more cutscenes at the twins' house before finally being able to take control of the party and do stuff.
(*Using the real names here to avoid confusion. I'll use the nicknames you and I gave them when it's just between you and me.)
Starting here.
Date: 2019-07-17 10:47 am (UTC)Okay, here I am...
Chapter splitting: loath as I am to bring up Magus523's work, because I don't like it any longer (at least not his NEW work, his older works are decent enough), his structure is always solid: from where the chapter starts (let's say the last part of Evrai in BoF2), find out where the next major boss is (Habalk), write towards that direction, see if any event in the meantime causes a significant change in circumstances (Rand's mother/Ryu's father), where you'll either stop the chapter because you need the event to be significant (Rand's mother) or proceed on because its denouement is brief now (Ryu's father), and upon reaching the boss, finish its denouement (escape from Evrai), give the story a visible direction (go to Gate) and start from the first step.
Cutaways: it wouldn't be a bad thing to have a cutaway to the character there if she's going to be a relevant character, since it means the audience grows interested in her. It would be just as valid to do what you didn't do and simply build up the interest through the other characters' talking about her, as long as the actions were valid.
'Filler battles': in a story, using random battles (to some degree) is useful to display how stronger the characters are from their past versions, while a game uses random battles to allow for leveling up since it's harder to program individual actions to render XP (which is why most games just reward you for killing things).
Not only that, but having monsters and such things expands the world you're trying to write, even if most of them don't appear. It doesn't matter that in a Xenoblade novelization the heroes don't fight every monster in every part of the Bionis, but their very existence allows for mentions and interesting possibilities.
...but that's my view, anyway.
Re: Starting here.
Date: 2019-07-17 10:48 am (UTC)I wasn't talking about random battles in general, I know those aren't filler. I was talking about one particular example regarding pacing.
Re: Starting here.
Date: 2019-07-17 10:48 am (UTC)If I actually do get around at any point to creating a game, I'll show everything to both you and Jake, and let the two of you decide where non-boss enemies would fit, be they stronger ones than or the same ones from previously. Sound good?
Re: Starting here.
Date: 2019-07-17 10:48 am (UTC)Sure, but I'm not likely to have much useful to say aside of the thing about pacing.
Re: Starting here.
Date: 2019-07-17 10:49 am (UTC)Nanako is a canon character who already appeared quite frequently in the anime, not only as three of the girls' homeroom teacher, but also as one of Konata's gaming buddies who frequently has to boss her to continue studying instead of slacking off. As for her planned role so far, once the party has a break and Konata finds a computer to log onto her game with, she will let her know that she, Soujiro, and Yui have paid a visit to Ichirobei to know more about what is currently unfolding, before offering to keep records of the events of the girls' journey as Konata fills her in. That would be the equivalent to Ness calling his father for that purpose, but it could definitely affect the actual plot as well.