Points raised between me and Brian
Mar. 25th, 2015 10:11 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
dmxratedTo start with, the main reason I brought everything in the previous entry up with Brian, is due to conflicting feelings between how much I used to like Blood's old works and how badly ruined our friendship has been since then. To mind in particular comes the time I received copies of his works around this time last year, and read everything I had previously skipped of I Was Kagami Hiiragi.
Then again, this Photoplasty list is of all kinds of things similar involving stuff from people's childhoods. It's natural enough for one's fond memories to become tarnished in hindsight by either later events or learning certain things in their background, but Brian said that I shouldn't let them be.
-----
I've already mentioned differences in priorities two entries ago. So far, Brian is the second person to have told me not to get so worked up about school schedules (the first being Simply Hiiragi), and that Blood's focus may have been to face certain personal demons, unless he just has some kind of morbid fascination in the stuff he writes about. I do suppose that he might have just wanted to keep things simple, but that still doesn't excuse having ignored stuff that's been presented to him throughout a 24-episode anime and then-eight-volume manga (especially given how many references he drops to canonical events).
He also said pretty much the same thing about what I said regarding everyone's out-of-character behavior, saying that human relationships are more important than human-character relationships. He did say later, that all points I raised were still valid, but the way Blood handled Kagami and Tsukasa in particular is even more insulting than "seasons". With most anime or games, I just want to be entertained, and tend not to focus on how much things actually make sense. With Fanfiction, the reason one looks for fics of a particular fandom, is because they appreciated the work of origin. I liked the characters in Lucky Star for who they were, so barring AUs such as Fists of Rage or The Library, I want to see everyone act the way the would have in canon, changing only due to circumstances (such as how Tsukasa and Kagami's Face Heel Turns in The Loss of Innocence and I Was Kagami Hiiragi respectively result from being raped, the deaths of two loved ones, and the emotional overloads that they go through following those respective incidents.) Blood barely explains shit about the way Kagami behaves throughout chapter 3 of Crap Unread, and no, butterflies in the stomach might cloud one's judgment, but it doesn't cost them all regard for their friends' well being. (Kagami was warned about Yuka's intentions against Tsukasa in IWKH, but unlike Riku in CU, Yuka had yet to actually do anything to anyone, and Kagami had reason enough to trust her not to.)
(I will admit that while Soujiro is also a bit out of character by allowing Konata to date Kenji after "getting to know" him (he did object to her finding a boyfriend in episode 20 of the anime), I'm also guilty with him myself in Starbound. He gives Konata permission offpage to leave with her friends during a dangerous situation in chapter 1, even though Konata says in anime episode 7, "Fathers always worry about their daughters; it's what they do best," after the twins both receive a call from Tadao within only a few minutes. But, both cases are minor issues.)
Also, to clear something up, Blood did tell me before, that he just writes stuff based on curiosity, such as "What if Tsukasa was raped?" or "What if there was a shootout at Ryouou High?" I Was Kagami Hiiragi was an exception, because it was based on experiences he once had involving a cousin of his. (If there actually is an excuse for his disregard for continuity, that could be it. Crap Unread has none.)
-----
Regarding the way Blood reacted to my initial critiques, Brian said that, even kids aside, there are plenty of people who need nothing but validation, or else their self-confidence suffers. (I told him that this was actually a major point in I Was Kagami Hiiragi.) Even back in college, he himself couldn't accept any kind of criticism.
(Simple did tell me before, that he used to be Blood's favorite critiquist, back when he was active as bloodscorpion88, although he had given up on him after reading Crap Unread and seeing what a mess that fic really is.)
He also said that, with some people, it only takes one stupid thing to say for them not to take someone seriously anymore. Here, though, I'd say that what got to him was me bringing up schedule differences for a second time when I critiqued his work, and even spelling it all out. However, he did also say that by apologizing to him, I might've made him feel even worse by validating his feelings. (Yeah, I remember feeling that way when Dad told me early in 9th grade, that maybe I was right about Mrs. Bandows treating me like a kid when she was still with me before being let off half a year earlier.)
-----
One way or another, he did say that he wasn't trying to encourage me to make up with him, especially since I already have attempted that. It is possible that we might reconcile, but I won't be seeking that with him in the foreseeable future.
If for any reason he actually does apologize to me for having slighted me when I tried doing the mature thing first, then I probably would take down Stage One: Thwarted. Let's remember that what got to me is that he seems to want nothing more to do with me just because I said a few off things, and to just let that go wouldn't do any favors for my ego. Simple told me recently that the characters are still OOC in SOT, but that's not such a big deal, because the bigger point behind that fic was to piss all over Crap Unread and humiliate Blood on a public website for making me feel like I don't matter. (Of course I matter; that's the same reason why I write to this blog and write fanfiction.)
I still wouldn't read Crap Unread unless he actually were to start the fic over (something I said something about, and that Simple told me of having also suggested to him). Between the shoddy storytelling and the emotional impact of what goes on, I should mention that SOT, while written primarily to bash Blood, has also helped to deny most of what happened so far in CU, partly because if I were to ask him any further questions about that, he would probably say "Why should you care?", if even that. Removing that, though, there's still everything I've written in the Other page for TV Tropes: Wallbanger, although redlerred7 did cite possible psychological reasons why the antagonists play the games they play w/ everyone when I asked him about that recently. (Reasonable to assume Blood will explain those in due time, but his near-lack of an explanation for Kagami's actions in chapter 3 still stands.)
Also been considering commissioning for something of his aforementioned OC Yuka, mainly for my own reasons. If I actually do get around to that, I will likely ask the artist to keep me anonymous and share it with mariofan48 to share in turn with Blood, asking him not to say it was from me unless he asks. Yes, I still despise Blood, but not enough that I'd want him to miss out on something he be interested in otherwise.
-----
On a lesser note, Brian did say that what I had written had reminded him of another, apocalyptic fic I brought up with him and Marie a year and a half ago. I told him that he was thinking of No Birds, No Bees, in which all human males are dead while the female half is reduced to killing and torturing one another for survival. Chelle says that such a scenario wouldn't make sense after any kind of apocalypse, but I personally wouldn't know whether the key to survival would be to compete or to work together. Its author Arkytal told me that that whole thing was based on survival tactics used by soldiers in the Vietnam and Gulf Wars, so who knows.
What was really heartbreaking about that fic, though, was that the idea of the entire male population dying inexplicably and all females competing lethally to survive could take place after just about any other fic, including my own. Arkytal did tell me at some point, though, that it actually departs from canon during episode 6, during the girls' offscreen trip back home from the beach, although this obviously should have been specified from the very beginning.
Then again, this Photoplasty list is of all kinds of things similar involving stuff from people's childhoods. It's natural enough for one's fond memories to become tarnished in hindsight by either later events or learning certain things in their background, but Brian said that I shouldn't let them be.
-----
I've already mentioned differences in priorities two entries ago. So far, Brian is the second person to have told me not to get so worked up about school schedules (the first being Simply Hiiragi), and that Blood's focus may have been to face certain personal demons, unless he just has some kind of morbid fascination in the stuff he writes about. I do suppose that he might have just wanted to keep things simple, but that still doesn't excuse having ignored stuff that's been presented to him throughout a 24-episode anime and then-eight-volume manga (especially given how many references he drops to canonical events).
He also said pretty much the same thing about what I said regarding everyone's out-of-character behavior, saying that human relationships are more important than human-character relationships. He did say later, that all points I raised were still valid, but the way Blood handled Kagami and Tsukasa in particular is even more insulting than "seasons". With most anime or games, I just want to be entertained, and tend not to focus on how much things actually make sense. With Fanfiction, the reason one looks for fics of a particular fandom, is because they appreciated the work of origin. I liked the characters in Lucky Star for who they were, so barring AUs such as Fists of Rage or The Library, I want to see everyone act the way the would have in canon, changing only due to circumstances (such as how Tsukasa and Kagami's Face Heel Turns in The Loss of Innocence and I Was Kagami Hiiragi respectively result from being raped, the deaths of two loved ones, and the emotional overloads that they go through following those respective incidents.) Blood barely explains shit about the way Kagami behaves throughout chapter 3 of Crap Unread, and no, butterflies in the stomach might cloud one's judgment, but it doesn't cost them all regard for their friends' well being. (Kagami was warned about Yuka's intentions against Tsukasa in IWKH, but unlike Riku in CU, Yuka had yet to actually do anything to anyone, and Kagami had reason enough to trust her not to.)
(I will admit that while Soujiro is also a bit out of character by allowing Konata to date Kenji after "getting to know" him (he did object to her finding a boyfriend in episode 20 of the anime), I'm also guilty with him myself in Starbound. He gives Konata permission offpage to leave with her friends during a dangerous situation in chapter 1, even though Konata says in anime episode 7, "Fathers always worry about their daughters; it's what they do best," after the twins both receive a call from Tadao within only a few minutes. But, both cases are minor issues.)
Also, to clear something up, Blood did tell me before, that he just writes stuff based on curiosity, such as "What if Tsukasa was raped?" or "What if there was a shootout at Ryouou High?" I Was Kagami Hiiragi was an exception, because it was based on experiences he once had involving a cousin of his. (If there actually is an excuse for his disregard for continuity, that could be it. Crap Unread has none.)
-----
Regarding the way Blood reacted to my initial critiques, Brian said that, even kids aside, there are plenty of people who need nothing but validation, or else their self-confidence suffers. (I told him that this was actually a major point in I Was Kagami Hiiragi.) Even back in college, he himself couldn't accept any kind of criticism.
(Simple did tell me before, that he used to be Blood's favorite critiquist, back when he was active as bloodscorpion88, although he had given up on him after reading Crap Unread and seeing what a mess that fic really is.)
He also said that, with some people, it only takes one stupid thing to say for them not to take someone seriously anymore. Here, though, I'd say that what got to him was me bringing up schedule differences for a second time when I critiqued his work, and even spelling it all out. However, he did also say that by apologizing to him, I might've made him feel even worse by validating his feelings. (Yeah, I remember feeling that way when Dad told me early in 9th grade, that maybe I was right about Mrs. Bandows treating me like a kid when she was still with me before being let off half a year earlier.)
-----
One way or another, he did say that he wasn't trying to encourage me to make up with him, especially since I already have attempted that. It is possible that we might reconcile, but I won't be seeking that with him in the foreseeable future.
If for any reason he actually does apologize to me for having slighted me when I tried doing the mature thing first, then I probably would take down Stage One: Thwarted. Let's remember that what got to me is that he seems to want nothing more to do with me just because I said a few off things, and to just let that go wouldn't do any favors for my ego. Simple told me recently that the characters are still OOC in SOT, but that's not such a big deal, because the bigger point behind that fic was to piss all over Crap Unread and humiliate Blood on a public website for making me feel like I don't matter. (Of course I matter; that's the same reason why I write to this blog and write fanfiction.)
I still wouldn't read Crap Unread unless he actually were to start the fic over (something I said something about, and that Simple told me of having also suggested to him). Between the shoddy storytelling and the emotional impact of what goes on, I should mention that SOT, while written primarily to bash Blood, has also helped to deny most of what happened so far in CU, partly because if I were to ask him any further questions about that, he would probably say "Why should you care?", if even that. Removing that, though, there's still everything I've written in the Other page for TV Tropes: Wallbanger, although redlerred7 did cite possible psychological reasons why the antagonists play the games they play w/ everyone when I asked him about that recently. (Reasonable to assume Blood will explain those in due time, but his near-lack of an explanation for Kagami's actions in chapter 3 still stands.)
Also been considering commissioning for something of his aforementioned OC Yuka, mainly for my own reasons. If I actually do get around to that, I will likely ask the artist to keep me anonymous and share it with mariofan48 to share in turn with Blood, asking him not to say it was from me unless he asks. Yes, I still despise Blood, but not enough that I'd want him to miss out on something he be interested in otherwise.
-----
On a lesser note, Brian did say that what I had written had reminded him of another, apocalyptic fic I brought up with him and Marie a year and a half ago. I told him that he was thinking of No Birds, No Bees, in which all human males are dead while the female half is reduced to killing and torturing one another for survival. Chelle says that such a scenario wouldn't make sense after any kind of apocalypse, but I personally wouldn't know whether the key to survival would be to compete or to work together. Its author Arkytal told me that that whole thing was based on survival tactics used by soldiers in the Vietnam and Gulf Wars, so who knows.
What was really heartbreaking about that fic, though, was that the idea of the entire male population dying inexplicably and all females competing lethally to survive could take place after just about any other fic, including my own. Arkytal did tell me at some point, though, that it actually departs from canon during episode 6, during the girls' offscreen trip back home from the beach, although this obviously should have been specified from the very beginning.
no subject
Date: 2019-07-17 01:44 pm (UTC)"Its author Arkytal told me that that whole thing was based on survival tactics used by soldiers in the Vietnam and Gulf Wars, so who knows."
Countless of people know, because history has plenty of examples of plagues that wiped out large parts of a population. No matter how lethal the results, plagues do not turn the entirety of the survivors into war-mongering savages who collectively forget how to operate their own society, technology, agriculture and government anymore. War zone =/= plague zone.
no subject
Date: 2019-07-17 01:45 pm (UTC)Blood's explanation to me as to how the Hunt Club originated and works might just be one of those as well, and I could copy and paste everything he said about that here or somewhere to see if you agree with it or not. Should I?
no subject
Date: 2019-07-17 01:45 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2019-07-17 01:46 pm (UTC)The Hunt Club was started by a single student (you can add your own names) who was from a very upscale family who was in big business/politics whatever. This said student had everything given to him from his birth and knew of no other way of getting what he wanted by simply demanding it. He was surrounded by the most upscale company his whole life and only knew one single culture and everything else was a threat.
His family founded Ryoo High School many years earlier and even though it was more public, it still had a higher sense of acceptance. As the years progressed and this single student's family continued to pass through the school one generation after the next, the public cultures began to embrace the otaku culture (which was more of a trend in recent years) and wasn't an issue in the earlier years.
As a result, the original student's grandson believed his culture of "upscale" and "sophistication" was in jeopardy. He believed that everything his family worked so hard to create was being mocked by the more open and otaku culture so he decided to take drastic measures. He and a few of his disgruntled friends who felt the same way decided that they would "persuade" students they saw as lesser status to stop applying to Ryoo. It started out as just four people cornering a few students in bathrooms and telling them to change their ways or transfer but it didn't work so the stakes had to be raised.
As more and more otaku flooded the school, the group of upscale students began to grow until they decided they were big enough to form a club but because of their upscale lifestyles, they were smart about it. The Hunt Club was designed to be sophisticated with "parliamentary procedures" and elections for leaders each year and committees that would design very vile hazing rituals. They would always change meeting locations to remain undetected from either an unoccupied clubroom in the school to one of the members's houses or even restaurants.
How someone would join the club was very strict in the beginning obviously because of what they were doing. The "elite members," who spent the most time in the club and built it from the ground up kept eyes out for potential recruits to keep it going. When they ran out of upscale people who were pissed off and started to run into more people like Miyuki, they had to lower their standards to idiots who just liked to push people around. The typical jocks like Misao came around and never saw any harm in hazing students since in sports clubs they always had rough senses of humor.
As for Izumi, she was upscale obviously from the story and a slight backstory was that Izumi was originally invited to join (I was actually thinking of writing a prequel to Bonds all from Izumi's POV a year prior to the shooting) but she turned them down because that wasn't her personality. As a result, they feared that she would expose them so they trailed her everywhere until one day they found her hanging out with Hiyori (the day Hiyori discovered Izumi was an otaku). The next day, they hazed Hiyori relentlessly until she spilled the beans, thus commencing the torture of Izumi.
Our follow-up exchange
Date: 2019-07-17 01:48 pm (UTC)I should ask, what exactly are these parliamentary procedures that you had mentioned? About how many members are in the club, both in total and for each rank in its hierarchy? Are there enough that they can divide the club into smaller groups, in case one group does get found out? Do the top leaders remain anonymous even to those just one rank below them, or are they well enough known to the club as a whole?
Blood:
The procedures are simple. Each new leader is chosen by the one leaving the school and they are usually first or second years. Others usually chose which committee they want to be in and committees range from thinking of ways to torment students, finding meeting locations, choosing targets, etc. There are about 50 members altogether with the committees thinking of ways to tormenting students being the largest with half of them while others are assigned to be a target's "friend" and get to know them personally and use any dirt they can, as well as finding out where they live. All the members know each other and it is just the one club.
Me:
How about how they keep potential traitors in line? It is common after all for people to realize the error of their ways and change them. If that were to happen, surely, whoever does clean up their act would do nothing short of selling them all out, although there obviously would be the risk of becoming a new target. Kinda like how gangs prevent their members from ratting people out and kill any who do.
Anything I should know about that?
Blood:
That's true and basically there was a "responsibility" for the leader committee of the club. The leader committee would be the leader's closest circle of friends, usually only two or three because they are the ones the leader would trust with his/her life and their loyalty to the leader is not an issue. The few members of that leadership committee basically spy and eavesdrop on every member in the club and listen in conversations to make sure no one is getting weak-kneed. If someone is seeing the error of their way, they're reported to the leader, and the leader brings the "traitor" in, sits them down, and threatens them to straighten up or their life will be an endless hell just like their victims and they have access to the traitors 24/7 since they all know each other and where everyone lives, etc.
Me:
You sure they don't simply drop potential traitors from the roster and watch them like they do with anyone who rejected membership offers? Learning what you've told me so far, it seems likely that they would have asked Katsuo not to attend any more meetings if they were to planning something like to drag Izumi to someone's house and make her watch her stuffed animals burn, something which he could easily report to the police once they've established the times, places, methods, and other specifics for.
Also, admittedly, the anime only covered twelve hours worth of events that happened throughout a whole year and a half. However, since none of the characters even remotely seem to live in fear or seem to be affected by anything, I'm guessing that canon ones like Konata, Hiyori, and Patricia aren't hazed so much that they can't live life fulfillingly. Even if it stopped for Konata before the anime begins, the other two are still only first-years, so they obviously would've endured some stuff offscreen even after debuting. I do understand that, unlikely as it actually seems, you did need to set things up in a way that Bonds could have believably happened.
How would you explain that?
(He never got around to responding to that before falling defunct following the deletion of his stories at the time.)
In any case, do you actually buy any of that?
Re: Our follow-up exchange
Date: 2019-07-17 01:49 pm (UTC)I don't buy the dynamics of the movement. It sets up a school clique influencing group behavior to expand and achieve, yet handles as if it were a government with elections and rules.
How did they grow large? The explanation skips over this completely : "As more and more otaku flooded the school, the group of upscale students began to grow ...."
Why? Did the clique create a "otaku = bad, if you wanna be cool you gotta be like us" paradigm? If so, why would they bother with something as conspicuous as elections and clubs when they can just use social pressure? Having a secret club with guidelines and crime plans is a weakness : there is something to sell out.
Having widespread social power and inspiring, but never quite ordering others to do shitty things to the singled out victims is more plausible. A club might help, but instead of a secret one, having a public one that appears innocent while enforcing toxic standards is both a useful tool and a defense.
It kinda sounds like an attempt to simplify the complex social dynamics that lead to herd bullying into a villain that can be taken down.